Curse

Grin · Jun 04, 2006, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Okay, I'm a newb and have little experience.

That being said, I've been watching this thread and playing an assassin. Granted, I haven't made it very far so my skills and experience are limited.

It seems to me that critical strikes are one problem that everyone agrees on. In same level combat it works fine. For all others it doesn't. Then you have the fact that critical strikes do so much for the assassin. I find myself doing okay until I start missing or I stop landing critical strikes. Blind or Evasion take me out of the fight real quick and I have almost no way to counter them.

Also, for hit and run tactics to be effective the thing you hit pretty much has to die. This doesn't seem to happen for me if there is a healer in the opposing group, and there often is.

As far as Deadly Arts go, you have to give something up to put points in it. What are you going to give up? Dagger Mastery is your primary weapon and in my experience where most of your damage skills come from. Critical Strikes keeps your energy up and provide more damage with some defense as well. Shadow Arts is your only form of healing. Would you drop your healing to get Deadly Arts? Would you drop your primary attribute for it? How about your weapon? Deadly Arts needs to fill one of those holes for it to be worth using. Right now it has no healing, moderate damage but no passive bonus like you'd get with Dagger Mastery or Critical Strikes.

Okay, I think I've ranted enough. Sorry for my uninformed opinion. Just the impression I've had so far from playing an assassin.

Aisius · Jun 04, 2006, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grin

Okay, I'm a newb and have little experience.

That being said, I've been watching this thread and playing an assassin. Granted, I haven't made it very far so my skills and experience are limited.

It seems to me that critical strikes are one problem that everyone agrees on. In same level combat it works fine. For all others it doesn't. Then you have the fact that critical strikes do so much for the assassin. I find myself doing okay until I start missing or I stop landing critical strikes. Blind or Evasion take me out of the fight real quick and I have almost no way to counter them.

Also, for hit and run tactics to be effective the thing you hit pretty much has to die. This doesn't seem to happen for me if there is a healer in the opposing group, and there often is.

As far as Deadly Arts go, you have to give something up to put points in it. What are you going to give up? Dagger Mastery is your primary weapon and in my experience where most of your damage skills come from. Critical Strikes keeps your energy up and provide more damage with some defense as well. Shadow Arts is your only form of healing. Would you drop your healing to get Deadly Arts? Would you drop your primary attribute for it? How about your weapon? Deadly Arts needs to fill one of those holes for it to be worth using. Right now it has no healing, moderate damage but no passive bonus like you'd get with Dagger Mastery or Critical Strikes.

Okay, I think I've ranted enough. Sorry for my uninformed opinion. Just the impression I've had so far from playing an assassin.

I deleted my post regarding my uninformed opinion. I have played a rogue in world of warcraft for 3 yrs and while making the assassin i noticed some similarities in the two.

I'm happy to be posting on these boards about my interpretations and feel no different that someone else thinks I have no clue about the topic.

Rogues use to totally suck in that game , areas like MC meant the rogue would vanish and have vanish break on an aoe attack that comes after the vanish 1 shotting the rogue, fient (reduction in aggro) used to miss repeatedly and backstab dodged parried and blocked. I'm not saying there the same and both are different games but if there is problems with the profession and I notice them at a low lvl playing the game, shouldn't I have a right to post the same as anyone else ?

Standing behind the warrior would work, I have pulled yetis in the game and had two come killed the first one while the other stood behind him . This could be because I'm a newb and that at higher lvl in this game everything attacks thru things but I'm just making suggestion from my experience , I don't expect everyone else to have the same as me.

phoenixtech · Jun 04, 2006, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Here's a quick comparison of the armor options for the other classes in addition to the basic +full energy setups (shrouded armor).

Monks: Gets +10 while enchanted armor, and there's ALOT of boon prots out there so they are almost always enchanted. Total armor rating = 70.

Mesmers: Gets +10 while in stance. Very useful when you are using mantras.

Elementalist: Gets +10 while enchanted. Once again, very useful since many builds uses attunments and are enchanted.

Rangers: Gets +10 while in stance. Very useful since rangers have many stances.

Necros: Gets +5,5,5 for each minion controled, very nice for MM builds. Also has tormentors for 70 armor overall but take extra damage from holy.

Ritualists: Gets +5,5,5 for each spirit controlled, +10 items being held, +10 under weapons. ALL very popular builds. Total armor rating = 70 or 75.

Assasins: Gets 70 base armor for a melee class, +15 vs piercing, blunt, slashing attacks or +15 while attacking. The most practical of the armor choice aside from full energy set is the +15 while attacking for 85 armor rating while attacking.

Now, What % of time is the assasin "attacking" compared to the other classes being under "enchantment", "in stance", controlling 3 spirits. I know as a spirit spammer my rit would have 75 armor say 80% of the time. I know a boon prot would have 70 armor ~90% of the time if he wore full acolytes. What % of time do you think assasins are "while attacking".

VERY SIMPLE and quick fix. Replace +15 vs blunt, piercing, slashing armor with +15 while enchanted, +15 while in stance. Remove the 20% less condition duration stuff if needed for balance issues.

Phades · Jun 04, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Enchantments can be removed and not all enchantments are built equal. Keep this in mind before attempting to relate it to when someone is attacking. Casters are also not designed as physical damage dealers and their armor is more inline with their ability to cast spells. The only real question you could raise would be a parity between druids and gladiators versus shrouded, since the mesmer and monk equivilants only add bonus energy as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Mesmers: Gets +10 while in stance. Very useful when you are using mantras.

Not many mantras are worth playing that are actually stances. You have persistance and recovery for mantras and distortion under illusion. All of them get rather spendy and only two of them could be kept up constantly. Furthermore, you would only run persistance in a heavy illusion based hex setup. Due to the nature of fast casting, interupting a mesmer is more difficult than other professions, so resolve and concentration get thrown out as well. What you have after that are highly situational and sometimes questionable mantras that cover the elements and signets. The other two open up vulerabilities that lower armor level, which throw them out as well.

So if you are saying that armor is useful while using distortion to protect yourself more from physical assailants, that is just a smart move. To say that its as universal of protection similar to assassins gaining armor while perfoming combos before teleporting out again, well you missed the mark a little bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Elementalist: Gets +10 while enchanted. Once again, very useful since many builds uses attunments and are enchanted.

There is no "good" build using attunements, or the majority of other elementalist based enchantments. You have ether prodigy for 15~18s and thats about it. Considering the nature of what actually deals most of the damage, you would be better off using the battlemage armor for bonus physical protection. Unless you are worried about a overabundance of lightning based damage that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Rangers: Gets +10 while in stance. Very useful since rangers have many stances.

Many stances and stances you would want to use are two different things. They have a few useful ones, but only a couple of them can be kept up regularly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Necros: Gets +5,5,5 for each minion controled, very nice for MM builds. Also has tormentors for 70 armor overall but take extra damage from holy.

Ritualists: Gets +5,5,5 for each spirit controlled, +10 items being held, +10 under weapons. ALL very popular builds. Total armor rating = 70 or 75.

Minions and spirits die and they both take a fair amount of time to setup. Ritual lord is really your only argument for logevity and unconditional use here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Now, What % of time is the assasin "attacking" compared to the other classes being under "enchantment", "in stance", controlling 3 spirits. I know as a spirit spammer my rit would have 75 armor say 80% of the time. I know a boon prot would have 70 armor ~90% of the time if he wore full acolytes. What % of time do you think assasins are "while attacking".

Nearly 100% of the time that the assassin puts himself within harms reach in order to be attacking. The primary time when this wouldnt be the case, would be when a assassin is force to retreat from a battle entirely and is persued by individuals with a run speed boost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

VERY SIMPLE and quick fix. Replace +15 vs blunt, piercing, slashing armor with +15 while enchanted, +15 while in stance. Remove the 20% less condition duration stuff if needed for balance issues.

Your solution doesnt change much, as AoD is the primary method to deliver the assassin into close combat situations to perform combos, which in turn give the assassin the bonus armor. The stance one is rather pointless, as the stances within the assassin lines are derived from a hex, or mobility based and either end when the assassin attacks or only lasts 3s for every 15 spent in refresh time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

What does the above have to do with assassin survival issues?

Not all mesmers use IW. Just about every assassin uses dagger skills. Regardless, I have not observed mesmer mortality rates even approaching assassins in any of the PUG groups I've encountered.

That is because mesmers arent blindly charging into melee range to use blackout and IW constantly. You asked for a comparison between "melee professions". IW is melee, just like a touch ranger or a thumper build. At no point in time should a assassin have the same staying power as a warrior. The difference in theme between the two is finesse versus overwhelming force.

My point is, a mesmer built to operate within melee range like the assassin is, would have a similar mortality rate. The thing is, this is not a AL survivability issue. Its a core design issue of function within the profession. If you give assassins a viable midrange option, then this entire issue goes away.

Give the deadly arts line the midrange option and utility it deserves and you improve many aspects of the class all at the same time without infringing upon the pvp aspect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

The problem with accepting high assassin attrition is that it still wears out healer monk energy. Many PUG healers already refuse to group with assassins. If you don't believe me, once again please try joining PUG's in the Deep or Warrens with your assassin, then post your results.

Should mesmers be given an arbitrary AL increase, due to their perceived pve bias?

If anything is surprising out of all of this, are the people who still insist on a "nuking" elementalist opposed to segregating against assassins or mesmers due to uptime performance.

lord_shar · Jun 04, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

...<SNIP>...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

What does the above have to do with assassin survival issues?

Not all mesmers use IW. Just about every assassin uses dagger skills. Regardless, I have not observed mesmer mortality rates even approaching assassins in any of the PUG groups I've encountered.

That is because mesmers arent blindly charging into melee range to use blackout and IW constantly. You asked for a comparison between "melee professions". IW is melee, just like a touch ranger or a thumper build. At no point in time should a assassin have the same staying power as a warrior. The difference in theme between the two is finesse versus overwhelming force.

My point is, a mesmer built to operate within melee range like the assassin is, would have a similar mortality rate. The thing is, this is not a AL survivability issue. Its a core design issue of function within the profession. If you give assassins a viable midrange option, then this entire issue goes away.

Not all assassins charge in first. However, the observed results are almost always the same: when the assassin moves in behind lead tanks, they quickly gain agro and sustain heavy/fatal damage. The reason this happens is because assassins have high AI target-priority but must close to melee to deliver their dagger combinations and don't have adequate armor for their given function.

Mesmers play primarily shut-down and disruption, so using them for IW function in PvE makes no sense in this thread. Yes, assassin's can also perform ranged combat as you've described to minimize death toll, but why would any party ever take an assassin for ranged combat when the ranger outputs much higher damage per second over longer ranges, with superior interrupts, better armor, and a more well-rounded skill set?

EDIT: Once again, no one here is asking for warrior-level assassin armors. A slight situational armor improvement ("AL vs. elements, hexed, enchanted, etc...) on top of existing armor stats would suffice. Improving Shadow Refuge's healing amount or duration will also help correct current assassin survival problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Give the deadly arts line the midrange option and utility it deserves and you improve many aspects of the class all at the same time without infringing upon the pvp aspect.

Should mesmers be given an arbitrary AL increase, due to their perceived pve bias?

If anything is surprising out of all of this, are the people who still insist on a "nuking" elementalist opposed to segregating against assassins or mesmers due to uptime performance.

Deadly Arts delivers so little damage that it's laughable. Assassins are intended to be quick strike characters, so resorting to deadly arts to address their armor deficiency pretty much eliminates their primary function.

I can see that your primary concern is keeping the assassin balanced for PvP. That's perfectly fine, but not at the expense of PvE playability. I'm fairly certain that PvE/PvP balance can be achieved... as it stands now, the assassin is not viable for end game PvE content. If you disagree, please post a picture of your assassin next to a slain Kanaxai or Urgoz using a PUG group

Aisius · Jun 04, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

I just wanted to appoligize to Grin for my comments regarding his post. I don't know the game that well and try my hardest in PUG with my warrior / monk on PVE missions to keep the assassin alive and producing dmge.

I wanted to take part in this discussion because I have had many experiences where the assassin will just disapear from the party window almost instantly and I see the frustration the player is experiencing.

This thread has opened my eyes to alot of facets of the assassin and playing my tank along side him, I thank respectively all it's contributers for giving me a further insight into the assassin played in Guild wars.

Note : this is a useless post to the main objectives of the thread but I wanted to say it all the same.

phoenixtech · Jun 05, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Not many mantras are worth playing that are actually stances. You have persistance and recovery for mantras and distortion under illusion. All of them get rather spendy and only two of them could be kept up constantly. Furthermore, you would only run persistance in a heavy illusion based hex setup. Due to the nature of fast casting, interupting a mesmer is more difficult than other professions, so resolve and concentration get thrown out as well. What you have after that are highly situational and sometimes questionable mantras that cover the elements and signets. The other two open up vulerabilities that lower armor level, which throw them out as well.

Mantra of recovery is pretty popular these days, I see no reason why I wouldn't choose the while in stance chest+ leggings when I'm playing that build. There's also Mantra of inscription on an E-surge, SoW, Sig Of humility setup. The Point I was trying to make is that even a squishy MESMER have the ability to choose an armor set that gives them 70 armor rating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

So if you are saying that armor is useful while using distortion to protect yourself more from physical assailants, that is just a smart move. To say that its as universal of protection similar to assassins gaining armor while perfoming combos before teleporting out again, well you missed the mark a little bit.

You automatically FALSELY assumed I was talking about distortion, no where did i mention that. Then you proceed to tell me that I missed the mark. Not sure if you are trying to look cool or trying to impress people or whatever but that's not very nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Nearly 100% of the time that the assassin puts himself within harms reach in order to be attacking. The primary time when this wouldnt be the case, would be when a assassin is force to retreat from a battle entirely and is persued by individuals with a run speed boost.

Your solution doesnt change much, as AoD is the primary method to deliver the assassin into close combat situations to perform combos, which in turn give the assassin the bonus armor. The stance one is rather pointless, as the stances within the assassin lines are derived from a hex, or mobility based and either end when the assassin attacks or only lasts 3s for every 15 spent in refresh time.

My Solution was never intended to REPLACE the while attacking armor, but to give assasins some flexibility in choosing their playing style, as for the stance one being pointless since assasins don't have many stance, that's what secondary classes are for.

Let me put it in this way. Do you truely believe that having +15 while enchanted/stance armor is inferior to having +15 vs blunt and 20% less bleeding duration armor options that we currently have? Oh and PS. you misquoted me on that last paragraph. I don't know what made you so hostile to my post, but if you keep this up I'll respond in kind.

Phades · Jun 05, 2006, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Mesmers play primarily shut-down and disruption, so using them for IW function in PvE makes no sense in this thread. Yes, assassin's can also perform ranged combat as you've described to minimize death toll, but why would any party ever take an assassin for ranged combat when the ranger outputs much higher damage per second over longer ranges, with superior interrupts, better armor, and a more well-rounded skill set?

With the existing skill sets, it would not make sense. Hence the point for change. Also, to follow along the logic of the domination mesmer, the assassin is timing. If you can get in and do what you need to and survive while the skills reset, then there really isnt an issue.

The barrage with crits setup does look interesting for the assassin though, but i was referencing more along the lines of alteration opposed to using existing methods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

EDIT: Once again, no one here is asking for warrior-level assassin armors. A slight situational armor improvement ("AL vs. elements, hexed, enchanted, etc...) on top of existing armor stats would suffice. Improving Shadow Refuge's healing amount or duration will also help correct current assassin survival problems.

Adding additional AL on top of the existing AL bonus would make the assassin armor superior to warrior armor, minus the shield of course. There also has to be a point where shadow refuge stops and troll ungent begins, due to the differences in activation time. Furthermore, no amount of +pips of regeneration is going to help against focused fire situations that would cause you to drop in hp that fast through defensive stances like critical defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Deadly Arts delivers so little damage that it's laughable. Assassins are intended to be quick strike characters, so resorting to deadly arts to address their armor deficiency pretty much eliminates their primary function.

Would you agree that deadly arts could use a buff then? The setup has the makings for an extention of the combo idea. All that is missing is some fine tuning on the hexes, give some options that combo from range, and have throwing knives linked to the attribute and call it done.

Although the likelyhood of a new weapon set is small, as i remeber talk of a beast mastery stat item, but i havent heard anything about it recently. The rest of it has the makings to solve your pve solution for survival due to being force to compete with warriors in the tanking department.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

I can see that your primary concern is keeping the assassin balanced for PvP. That's perfectly fine, but not at the expense of PvE playability. I'm fairly certain that PvE/PvP balance can be achieved... as it stands now, the assassin is not viable for end game PvE content. If you disagree, please post a picture of your assassin next to a slain Kanaxai or Urgoz using a PUG group

Yep and im suggesting giving the class an option to play differently, so that it isnt a risk in pve. If you enjoy the melee lifestyle, then you have to accept the risk involved. Otherwise, you are in a way agreeing with my idea for a change in a different direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Mantra of recovery is pretty popular these days, I see no reason why I wouldn't choose the while in stance chest+ leggings when I'm playing that build.

Because you wouldnt neccarially want to spec 14-15 in fast casting to bring that "bonus" AL up to the all the time level that you are arguing for assassins. For which assassins already have for the most part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

There's also Mantra of inscription on an E-surge, SoW, Sig Of humility setup. The Point I was trying to make is that even a squishy MESMER have the ability to choose an armor set that gives them 70 armor rating.

You can choose to spend one slot to augment 2 on the bar or go with recovery to augment 4-6 instead. It is giving up the obvious defensive ability that lie within illusion though, which any augmentation would be sacrificed for. That is unless you want to be hit every time by warriors, rangers, and assassins durring spikes.

The thing with the mesmer stances has alot to do with constant upkeep. Some of the nicer inspiration ones are long lasting, but do have decent costs ~25% of the total energy available. This isnt a problem when using reflex actions like shutdown methods, but it does begin to pose issues over time with pressure style chain casting. It is not the same as comparing it to divine boon, for instance, where it is cheap and easily reapplied.

Casters always had that ability to have 70AL, through defensive staff mods though. The tiered progression between the different profesisons from caster to warrior make sense, with typically 10AL seperating each under all circumstances. The only real variable occurs with elemental and physical damage with rangers and warriors specifically. You have not presented an argument against the intent of the assassin (to attack) against their bonus to AL keeping this established parity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

You automatically FALSELY assumed I was talking about distortion, no where did i mention that. Then you proceed to tell me that I missed the mark. Not sure if you are trying to look cool or trying to impress people or whatever but that's not very nice.

Just gave you an example of an "optimised" situation. A time where the extra AL is needed the entire time and is supplemented by a survival skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

My Solution was never intended to REPLACE the while attacking armor, but to give assasins some flexibility in choosing their playing style, as for the stance one being pointless since assasins don't have many stance, that's what secondary classes are for.

Using frenzy or flurry on an assassin isnt a good idea. The profession is already streched rather thin without spending more points and slots in beast mastery or illusion either. Wilderness survival maybe, but the assassin should be teleporting away instead of trying to tank the damage.

The while enchanted option simulates the while attacking situation anyway, given the nature of AoD. This would, in essense, reduce the amount of playable options. While hexed is durring a threatened situation, where the assassin should be withdrawing from soon after anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Let me put it in this way. Do you truely believe that having +15 while enchanted/stance armor is inferior to having +15 vs blunt and 20% less bleeding duration armor options that we currently have? Oh and PS. you misquoted me on that last paragraph. I don't know what made you so hostile to my post, but if you keep this up I'll respond in kind.

The bonuses in the other catagories have other benefits aside from the vs weapon options. It would be inferior.

It was automatic copy and pasting, so misquoting couldn't occur. Possible i cross cut a tag id while merging posts instead of double posting though.

Vahn Roi · Jun 05, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Wow, some very good info in this thread. If only you could get it out to all the PUGs out there.

Lord Oranos · Jun 05, 2006, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Hmm, for a skill change Id like the recharge of Black Lotus Strike to be brought down to 20 seconds. Maybe it could fit better into more builds if that happened.

lord_shar · Jun 05, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

With the existing skill sets, it would not make sense. Hence the point for change. Also, to follow along the logic of the domination mesmer, the assassin is timing. If you can get in and do what you need to and survive while the skills reset, then there really isnt an issue.

High assassin attrition acceptance has already been covered in a previous post. Assassins almost always get hammered the moment they move into melee, regardless of previously established agro. The problem with assassins requiring large amounts of healing is that it does lead to healer monk PUG's absolutely refusing to group with all assassins. Timing also doesn't matter if assassins have higher AI-target priority. I know that this is not an issue in GvG, but please try to recognize that it is an ongoing assassin PvE issue. Many of my friends have already abandoned their PvE assassins because of lack-of-grouping opportunities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

...<SNIP>...

Adding additional AL on top of the existing AL bonus would make the assassin armor superior to warrior armor, minus the shield of course. There also has to be a point where shadow refuge stops and troll ungent begins, due to the differences in activation time. Furthermore, no amount of +pips of regeneration is going to help against focused fire situations that would cause you to drop in hp that fast through defensive stances like critical defense.

This is not true. 70AL + 5AL = 75AL, which is below gladiator's 80AL,+20vs.physical. Even a +15AL conditional would still place it below gladiators. Bonus armor quantity can be varied... it need not remain along multiples of 15. There's also no reason why shadow refuge can't be modified, regardless of troll ungent's properties. They are independent skills from two separate classes -- there is no direct relevance between them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Would you agree that deadly arts could use a buff then? The setup has the makings for an extention of the combo idea. All that is missing is some fine tuning on the hexes, give some options that combo from range, and have throwing knives linked to the attribute and call it done.

Although the likelyhood of a new weapon set is small, as i remeber talk of a beast mastery stat item, but i havent heard anything about it recently. The rest of it has the makings to solve your pve solution for survival due to being force to compete with warriors in the tanking department.

Relevance please?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Yep and im suggesting giving the class an option to play differently, so that it isnt a risk in pve. If you enjoy the melee lifestyle, then you have to accept the risk involved. Otherwise, you are in a way agreeing with my idea for a change in a different direction.

*sigh* once again, this has already been answered previously, several times:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Yes, assassin's can also perform ranged combat as you've described to minimize death toll, but why would any party ever take an assassin for ranged combat when the ranger outputs much higher damage per second over longer ranges, with superior interrupts, better armor, and a more well-rounded skill set?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

1) Assassin players cannot force other warriors to carry Watch-Yourself just because the assassin class' personal armor levels are deficient

2) Assassins are treated as high-priority targets like monks, so they immediately draw agro the moment the tanking player moves.

3) Assassin self healing is insufficient for any high level pve encounter, thereby inherently over-taxing healing monks the moment the assassin gains agro.

I apologize for saying this, but I'm really starting to question that you have an end-game pve assassin. Otherwise, I wouldn't have to keep repeating the above. This is why I suggested posting a picture of your assassin next to a slain Kanaxai or Urgoz with a PUG group to prove my statements wrong. I see no such picture yet.

Suggestions are fine, but we've covered the same ones several times over.

Change is needed -- the present assassin skill set is sorely lacking in high end PvE. If such changes lead to PvP issues, that's perfectly fine -- any new issues can be corrected later via patch. However, assassin class balance cannot remain exclusive to PvP at the expense of PvE.

phoenixtech · Jun 05, 2006, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Yep and im suggesting giving the class an option to play differently, so that it isnt a risk in pve. If you enjoy the melee lifestyle, then you have to accept the risk involved. Otherwise, you are in a way agreeing with my idea for a change in a different direction. Because you wouldnt neccarially want to spec 14-15 in fast casting to bring that "bonus" AL up to the all the time level that you are arguing for assassins. For which assassins already have for the most part.

You don't need 100% uptime for MoR, that would be stupid. Even a 70% uptime would yield a very nice return for using the while in stance armor, but we're not really discussing mesmers here, the discussion, and the point of the thread was to improve assasins in general. Now, you wanted to "give the class" and option to play differently. Right now it seems to me that your only archtype (and that of the current GvG metagame) of the assasin is based on AoD. I don't see how restricting the assasin to +15 vs blunt damage with 20% less bleed duration would "give the class more options to play. Having a +15 while in stance would greatly improve builds like oh say A/W with rush + recall. 4 points into beast mastery will also get you a 7 second Tiger's fury. If a RANGER (who is supposed to be a RANGED character) can be a thumper have while in stance armor and use TF and benefit from the extra armor rating, why can't a A/R have it? Please enlighten me as how having +15 vs blunt and 20% less blind duration would give the assasin more options vs have a +15 while in stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

You can choose to spend one slot to augment 2 on the bar or go with recovery to augment 4-6 instead. It is giving up the obvious defensive ability that lie within illusion though, which any augmentation would be sacrificed for. That is unless you want to be hit every time by warriors, rangers, and assassins durring spikes.

The MoI with SoW + Sig of Humility is a fairly standard pre-nerf E-surge setup. Not sure if it's still the same today but most of the E-surge builds have around 10 points in inspiration. Bringing distortion on the e-surge when you have wards, monks, etc to protect you would be pretty inefficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

The while enchanted option simulates the while attacking situation anyway, given the nature of AoD. This would, in essense, reduce the amount of playable options. While hexed is durring a threatened situation, where the assassin should be withdrawing from soon after anyways.

The bonuses in the other catagories have other benefits aside from the vs weapon options. It would be inferior.

First, I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly, but there is no while hexed assasin armor and I certainly never proposed a while hexed armor. Second, as I've already stated, the current armor option is for example: +15 vs BLUNT, 20% less blind duration. In most type of competitive PVP that 20% less duration means very little since your monk should be removing it way before the 20% takes place. I fail to see how +15 vs blunt would be superior to +15 while in stance/enchanted. As for your argument vs while enchanted, there ARE other enchantments that asns can use besides AoD you know, including my favorite during the FPE "way of the fox". In fact, having ONLY while attacking as the only viable option beside the full shrouded armor MAKES the asn more restricted TO builds based around AoD since other teleport skills have such long recharge. It pretty much FORCES you to use AoD to teleport in, attack and teleport back out to get any benefit from the +15 while attacking armor.

Spura · Jun 05, 2006, 11:19 AM // 11:19

My beef with assassin is crappiness of deathly arts. Sure it has some nice things, but ANet made assassin streched thinner than even ranger. You need daggers and crit strikes. So you can only spec up to medium height in some third attribute and it sure as hell isn't gonna be deadly with shadow being much better.

sambotheman · Jun 05, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

the way i have been playing assasin is to aod in 5 hit combo and aod out again (this is pvp btw) but i think they shouldnt have to be limited to 1 sort of play style take rangers they can melee, touch .Monks can smite (all be it isnt very good ). Rit can do damage, healing and support style and so on with all the other classes.

armour i cant really comment on very well ,as i dont really get pounded on alot but 70 does seem slightly low, considering dragons and plate got an update to a base of 90 with +10 to pysical, im not saying it should be that but give a viable alternative to just the energy armour.

from the pve side its laughable( i havent had a chance to play as one it pve yet) but.. i can still tell by henchmen and pugs that the problem is both ways, that alot of people are playing them the wrong way by using them as tanks and sustainted damage dealers.. this is what warriors are for. Also the way they are set up by giving them a main attribute that is better at the beggining of the game rather than at the end it quite pointless.

Phades · Jun 06, 2006, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

This is not true. 70AL + 5AL = 75AL, which is below gladiator's 80AL,+20vs.physical. Even a +15AL conditional would still place it below gladiators. Bonus armor quantity can be varied... it need not remain along multiples of 15. There's also no reason why shadow refuge can't be modified, regardless of troll ungent's properties. They are independent skills from two separate classes -- there is no direct relevance between them.

*SIGH* Its 70+15AL and we have went over this several times already. I also covered that there is no direct parity in bonuses in relationship towards class specialties. Warriors having the obvious advantage in physical damage, while rangers having obvious elemental advantages. Are you suggesting for some kind of chaos, shadow, or holy mitigation? If not, then your entire argument doesnt make sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Relevance please?

Not placing the assassin into direct competition with warriors. You know, using them in different ways instead of asking for a buff to put them equal to warrior armor levels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

*sigh* once again, this has already been answered previously, several times:

Yet you fail to aknowledge the immediate 40% reduction of damage with the different armor setup, instead of insisting that the bonus to energy armor (or something similar), recieve a unwarrented bonus. You also continue to evade its direct effect upon your overal health issue brought up earlier and how it improves your downtime of recovery over the downtime of skill recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

I apologize for saying this, but I'm really starting to question that you have an end-game pve assassin. Otherwise, I wouldn't have to keep repeating the above. This is why I suggested posting a picture of your assassin next to a slain Kanaxai or Urgoz with a PUG group to prove my statements wrong. I see no such picture yet.

I am starting to question if you pvp at all. Your suggestions are unbalancing in that aspect. I continue to present alternatives that would not affect that aspect and improve in the pve aspect.

I could also copy and paste your "relevance" snipet. Just because you have not done it, doesn't mean it hasnt been done.

If you go down the path making them similar to warriors in durability, then the question arises of why bring a warrior?

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Having a +15 while in stance would greatly improve builds like oh say A/W with rush + recall. 4 points into beast mastery will also get you a 7 second Tiger's fury. If a RANGER (who is supposed to be a RANGED character) can be a thumper have while in stance armor and use TF and benefit from the extra armor rating, why can't a A/R have it? Please enlighten me as how having +15 vs blunt and 20% less blind duration would give the assasin more options vs have a +15 while in stance.

Its quite simple actually. What are you doing when you have tiger's fury active? You are (ideally) attacking. That is essentially the same as the AL bonus while attacking, but doesnt force the character to use a slot for enchantments or a stance. While the current options favor AOD, the enchantment option would be identical to the bonus when attacking. Those other armors, allow the assassin to wait out some effects after teleporting away between combos opposed to being required to ask for condition removal. Being able to switch to the poison reduction and cripple reduction can be useful. Given the nature of blind application and weakness, those 2 armor types would be the overal "less useful" of the bunch. It is unfortunate, but probably neccacary, that the cripple reduction is also a chest piece.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Bringing distortion on the e-surge when you have wards, monks, etc to protect you would be pretty inefficient.

Relying entirely on wards or a monk, that has to juggle part of the rest of the other 7 people, is a dangerous gamble. The better question is, why is distortion so popular if it is not that needed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

First, I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly, but there is no while hexed assasin armor and I certainly never proposed a while hexed armor. Second, as I've already stated, the current armor option is for example: +15 vs BLUNT, 20% less blind duration. In most type of competitive PVP that 20% less duration means very little since your monk should be removing it way before the 20% takes place. I fail to see how +15 vs blunt would be superior to +15 while in stance/enchanted. As for your argument vs while enchanted, there ARE other enchantments that asns can use besides AoD you know, including my favorite during the FPE "way of the fox". In fact, having ONLY while attacking as the only viable option beside the full shrouded armor MAKES the asn more restricted TO builds based around AoD since other teleport skills have such long recharge. It pretty much FORCES you to use AoD to teleport in, attack and teleport back out to get any benefit from the +15 while attacking armor.

I was following your line of thought to conclusion, since you were copying existing properties of things like shields and weapon status bonuses.

The optimized build that AoD came about through quick recycling of the teleport skill, skipping lead off attacks and getting into the dual attacks quickly, and the questionable use options of the other eliete skills. AoD allowed assassins to operate differently than warriors or melee styled rangers with the teleport and combo setup, which gave them a niche in pvp.

Greater variety would occur if the other eliete skills were made more playable than they are currently, in addition to making the non-eliete teleports to the target more reusable. Precasting return is a option, but it removes the surprise factor that made assassin combos work properly since they are not optimized for the warrior style of wait then spike currently.

Way of the fox was a terrible skill in the first FPE event. Fortunatly it changed for the better.

phoenixtech · Jun 06, 2006, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Its quite simple actually. What are you doing when you have tiger's fury active? You are (ideally) attacking. That is essentially the same as the AL bonus while attacking, but doesnt force the character to use a slot for enchantments or a stance. While the current options favor AOD, the enchantment option would be identical to the bonus when attacking. Those other armors, allow the assassin to wait out some effects after teleporting away between combos opposed to being required to ask for condition removal. Being able to switch to the poison reduction and cripple reduction can be useful. Given the nature of blind application and weakness, those 2 armor types would be the overal "less useful" of the bunch. It is unfortunate, but probably neccacary, that the cripple reduction is also a chest piece.

Yes it's quite simple, what I'm doing with TF = attacking WITH higher DPS. With RUSH I'm chasing and closing in on the opponent. Therefore HAVING while in stance allows for builds with TF or RUSH which means MORE options than having just +15 WHILE attacking. You can't really be suggesting that changing ARMOR during combat to get reduced CONDITION is more practical than having while in stance/enchanted. If you think having 20% less poison duration is helpful when there's a cripshot on you, you've "missed the mark".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Relying entirely on wards or a monk, that has to juggle part of the rest of the other 7 people, is a dangerous gamble. The better question is, why is distortion so popular if it is not that needed?

Relying on your teammates IS part of the game, LOL, I'm not making suggestions to improve assasins in random arenas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Way of the fox was a terrible skill in the first FPE event. Fortunatly it changed for the better.

The first event was called the PVP preview event, the FPE stood for Factions Preview Event.

lord_shar · Jun 06, 2006, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

*SIGH* Its 70+15AL and we have went over this several times already. I also covered that there is no direct parity in bonuses in relationship towards class specialties. Warriors having the obvious advantage in physical damage, while rangers having obvious elemental advantages. Are you suggesting for some kind of chaos, shadow, or holy mitigation? If not, then your entire argument doesnt make sense.

I'm asking for a +5AL bonus so that 75AL is the norm as opposed to the current L70. I have no idea which 70+15AL you are referring to other than Nightstalkers, which only applies while attacking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Not placing the assassin into direct competition with warriors. You know, using them in different ways instead of asking for a buff to put them equal to warrior armor levels.

?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Yet you fail to aknowledge the immediate 40% reduction of damage with the different armor setup, instead of insisting that the bonus to energy armor (or something similar), recieve a unwarrented bonus. You also continue to evade its direct effect upon your overal health issue brought up earlier and how it improves your downtime of recovery over the downtime of skill recharge.

Watch-Yourself is ineffective until the assassin/warrior has adrenelin, but by the time it can be activated, the assassin is near dead. The +5 defense pommel buys a few extra seconds but doesn't seem adequate against L28+ endgame encounters. Your suggestions were tested and found largely ineffective in Raisu Palace, Hell's Precipice, etc... They may work for L20 PvP encounters, but cannot compensate for high assassin death rates in L28+ zones. I hope that clears things up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I am starting to question if you pvp at all. Your suggestions are unbalancing in that aspect. I continue to present alternatives that would not affect that aspect and improve in the pve aspect.

I don't currently PvP regularly and have never claimed otherwise. I play GW for PvE content, and Quake4, UT2004, and other first-person shooters for PvP. However, what I'm discussing is specific to high level PvE end game encounters. The PvE assassin does need fixing. I can see these issues do not concern you other than what effects it might have in PvP. You don't have to fear change -- ANET rebalances the skills whenever new issues are discovered. Change is perfectly fine and needed to keep assassins usable in high level PvE. I would also be happy with leaving armor alone if Shadow Refuge were restored to its previous state.

Here are my suggestions to ANET:

1) Make assassin base armor 75AL instead of 70AL, giving them 12.5% more damage mitigation -- still below warrior, but more melee-worthy than rangers
2) Improve Shadow Refuge's healing amount, duration, and/or making the +health at expiration non-conditional -- anything to improve its healing numbers

Why are the above such a threat to PvP? I believe you are starting to confuse other people's suggestions with mine (the 75+15AL confusion suggested the latter).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I could also copy and paste your "relevance" snipet. Just because you have not done it, doesn't mean it hasnt been done.

?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

If you go down the path making them similar to warriors in durability, then the question arises of why bring a warrior?

From my 2nd last post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

EDIT: Once again, no one here is asking for warrior-level assassin armors. A slight situational armor improvement ("AL vs. elements, hexed, enchanted, etc...) on top of existing armor stats would suffice. Improving Shadow Refuge's healing amount or duration will also help correct current assassin survival problems.

To sum it up, I can see you don't want the current state of assassin PvP to change. There is nothing wrong with that perspective, but keeping things as-is goes against the purpose of this entire thread. Assassins are not feasible in high level PvE in their present state. The assassin must undergo some modification to correct its shortcomings in L28+ PvE zones. If these corrections cause issues in PvP, then they can always be corrected post-mortem. PvP'ers are the minority of the GW population, but PvP and PvE must both be balanced to allow equal playability for any given class. Assassins can't remain the PvP-only class that it is now.

Rikimaru · Jun 06, 2006, 10:32 AM // 10:32

I Think the dagger attacks under the Critical Strike skill line should only require a melee weapon, instead of only being useable with daggers.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3050637
And it's been said, A LOT, but I think that assassins should have an option for black hair when you create them.

Phades · Jun 06, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Yes it's quite simple, what I'm doing with TF = attacking WITH higher DPS. With RUSH I'm chasing and closing in on the opponent. Therefore HAVING while in stance allows for builds with TF or RUSH which means MORE options than having just +15 WHILE attacking. You can't really be suggesting that changing ARMOR during combat to get reduced CONDITION is more practical than having while in stance/enchanted. If you think having 20% less poison duration is helpful when there's a cripshot on you, you've "missed the mark".

If you think you are going to be activly persuing anything and refuse to teleport back under that situation, you are playing the profession wrong.

You also have dark escape for such instances, which is far better than any other alternative for the same situation. Other than that, your "runner" idea gives more AL for when the profession isnt being threatened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Relying on your teammates IS part of the game, LOL, I'm not making suggestions to improve assasins in random arenas.

Requiring monk assistance 24/7 is a build weakness, not a strength.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

I'm asking for a +5AL bonus so that 75AL is the norm as opposed to the current L70. I have no idea which 70+15AL you are referring to other than Nightstalkers, which only applies while attacking.

Which you said yourself does not help the situation. with the following.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Yes, I've tried a +5 defensive pommel, and the 12.5% damage mitigation doesn't help enough to be effective.

I am starting to get confused with your suggestions, because on the one hand you state that its not enough unless its similar to warrior AL and on the other hand you are saying that you dont want warrior AL. In any event, those creatures where you are facing the lethality issues are designed to defeat that warrior armor. This leads to making most any change for AL in those situations mostly pointless unless it is improved to levels equal or exceeding the warrior. Other small pushes merely have side effects into other areas of the game that are tuned specifically for the lv20 vs lv20, 200 skill point combat situations. This is principally pvp, but it does trickle down into other areas of the game, due to scaling. This is a basic issue for overal balance versus situational balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Watch-Yourself is ineffective until the assassin/warrior has adrenelin, but by the time it can be activated, the assassin is near dead. The +5 defense pommel buys a few extra seconds but doesn't seem adequate against L28+ endgame encounters. Your suggestions were tested and found largely ineffective in Raisu Palace, Hell's Precipice, etc... They may work for L20 PvP encounters, but cannot compensate for high assassin death rates in L28+ zones. I hope that clears things up.

Then the only real solution lies in style of application, because no amount of increase will alter this situation you are claiming. I was going to suggest a different approach to the skill setup to use a tactic found in mmo games for "less than optimal" melee professions, but its really superfluous considering most any other profession that can cause "shutdown" could operate in that manner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

You don't have to fear change -- ANET rebalances the skills whenever new issues are discovered. Change is perfectly fine and needed to keep assassins usable in high level PvE. I would also be happy with leaving armor alone if Shadow Refuge were restored to its previous state.

Change that is bad or cause many others to suffer through months of imbalance cant be justified for any aspect of the game. Other "change" that i dislike fall under the rather irrellevant "improvements", such as the one performed to glyph of sacrifice.

Making shadow refuge into one of its former incarnations, merely causes warriors to change secondaries and become even more difficult to kill. Then you would have to rebalance areas with more enchantment removal to compensate and you end up with the same situation prior to the alteration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

2) Improve Shadow Refuge's healing amount, duration, and/or making the +health at expiration non-conditional -- anything to improve its healing numbers

Making the heal unconditional is the most likely to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

PvP'ers are the minority of the GW population, but PvP and PvE must both be balanced to allow equal playability for any given class. Assassins can't remain the PvP-only class that it is now.

Mesmers are largely shunned in addition to assassins. I havent seen a sin picked over a mes or vice versa, but i have seen both ignored in favor of adding another monk, which ends up being redundant.

lord_shar · Jun 06, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I am starting to get confused with your suggestions, because on the one hand you state that its not enough unless its similar to warrior AL and on the other hand you are saying that you dont want warrior AL.

The confusion is occuring at the quantity of base armor being proposed. I'm asking for a little more armor base (75AL as opposed to the present 70AL). Warrior base armor starts in the 80AL range (universal), then goes up dramatically due to shields and primary weapon bonuses. Assassins don't have the benefit of using an offhand since daggers only allow one armor suffix (as of this patch, no dagger armor prefixes exist). Given the quantity disparity, increasing assassin base armor by +5 won't even approach the armor levels warriors can achieve. Therefore, there will be no dramatic impact to PvP with the above proposed change -- we're talking about +12.5% damage mitigation, which should not be dramatic. However, a +5 defense dagger grip can stack on top of this, increasing damage mitigation +25% without the the activation delays associated with "Watch Yourself" as the only option (which proves lethal in L28+ areas). There will be a tradeoff of losing +30 health, +20% enchant, etc... but regardless, assassin armor becomes more high level PvE-viable without any significant threat to PvP. No, 80AL still doesn't approach the standard 96AL + damage absorbtion of warriors, so this proposed change won't infringe upon warrior tanking roles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

In any event, those creatures where you are facing the lethality issues are designed to defeat that warrior armor. This leads to making most any change for AL in those situations mostly pointless unless it is improved to levels equal or exceeding the warrior. Other small pushes merely have side effects into other areas of the game that are tuned specifically for the lv20 vs lv20, 200 skill point combat situations. This is principally pvp, but it does trickle down into other areas of the game, due to scaling. This is a basic issue for overal balance versus situational balance.

The above is largely incorrect. Warriors can tank L28 mobs when backed by proper healing. Assassins die in mere seconds when they enter melee with the L28+ end game mobs, even when supported by multiple healers. All I want to see is a few more seconds added to assassin survival to allow them to deliver their damage combo's and have time to retreat or teleport out. How this is done, whether improved armor or shadow refuge, doesn't matter. A direct consequence of current PvE assassin mortality is fewer grouping opportunities in end-game PvE. Until you have an assassin that has experienced this first-hand, you really won't understand the issue.

GW is both PvP and PvE, with PvP players being the minority. ANET generally does a good job at balancing the two playing segments, but this is not the present case with the new assassin class. ANET cannot sacrifice PvE assassin class balancing just for the benefit of the PvP minority. A compromise is required.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Then the only real solution lies in style of application, because no amount of increase will alter this situation you are claiming. I was going to suggest a different approach to the skill setup to use a tactic found in mmo games for "less than optimal" melee professions, but its really superfluous considering most any other profession that can cause "shutdown" could operate in that manner.

Two counterpoints:

1) An increase in armor levels, even if less than 80AL (warrior gladiator default) will improve assassin melee and elemental damage mitigation, thereby improving odds of survival and healing requirements.

2) An improvement of Shadow Refuge will allow assassins to self heal more efficiently, thereby reducing pressure (and rage-quitting probabilities) of PUG healer monks

There are usually multiple solutions to any given problem. You just have to be willing to explore all available options (including changes to production code).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Change that is bad or cause many others to suffer through months of imbalance cant be justified for any aspect of the game. Other "change" that i dislike fall under the rather irrellevant "improvements", such as the one performed to glyph of sacrifice.

The above is a good example of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt). ANET has already proven itself very quick at correcting new exploits -- look at how fast they removed 40% enchant SoA axes and ranger spirit spam. They are more than capable of putting emergency changes on the fast-track if necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Making shadow refuge into one of its former incarnations, merely causes warriors to change secondaries and become even more difficult to kill. Then you would have to rebalance areas with more enchantment removal to compensate and you end up with the same situation prior to the alteration.
Making the heal unconditional is the most likely to happen.

ANET can also change the linked attribute of shadow refuge from shadow magic to critical strikes (parhaps renaming it "critical refuge"), thereby removing that potential abuse. Quick and simple -- no FUD required.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Mesmers are largely shunned in addition to assassins. I havent seen a sin picked over a mes or vice versa, but i have seen both ignored in favor of adding another monk, which ends up being redundant.

The above depends on the PvE mission. I see mesmers most welcomed in Boreas Seabed, where interrupting the kraken's jade spell is high priority.

On a side note, I do have to point out that if your primary concern is PvP only with no genuine concern for PvE, then I see an inherent conflict of interest in your posts. This thread is intended to improve assassin playability for both PvP and PvE, not keep things status-quo. If you insist on using existing skills to address PvE assassin mortality, then you must have an end-game PvE assassin to confirm these suggestions. Otherwise, you are simply using a "shotgun" approach with no problem-solving-and-testing process being applied.